PROFILE

Description

Description

During Yasuo Kuroki's tenure as head of Sony’s Creative team, it was a time when the company's founding principles, envisioned by founders Masaru Ibuka and Akio Morita, were in full swing. They aimed to create an "ideal factory that stresses a spirit of freedom and open-mindedness, and where engineers with sincere motivation can exercise their technological skills to the highest level" as stated in the establishment document of Tokyo Tsushin Kogyo (later Sony). This period represented the peak of Sony as a manufacturing powerhouse. The iconic product of this era, the Walkman, released in 1979, epitomized Ibuka's vision of a "free and enjoyable ideal factory." Coincidentally, this was the same year American sociologist E. Vogel published "Japan as Number One," which highlighted Japan's manufacturing prowess and marked the era when Japanese products began to gain global recognition and expansion.
After graduating from university, Yasuo Kuroki joined Sony in 1960 after a stint at Sogo and was assigned to the advertising department. He earned the trust of Ibuka and Morita through his multifaceted work that today could be likened to that of a concept maker, creative manager, art director, brand consultant, and merchandiser. In 1978, he became the head of PP Center, which unified the previously dispersed design departments. PP stood for Product Planning to Product Promotion, overseeing everything from product planning to advertising and sales promotion, where Kuroki demonstrated his diverse talents. The PP Center was reorganized into the Product Headquarters in 1985 and the Creative Headquarters in 1988, with Kuroki serving as the head of both. His appointment as the first director from the design department made headlines in the design world, signifying Sony's commitment to design as a crucial management resource. After leaving Sony, Kuroki became the president of Sony Enterprise and later established the Kuroki Yasuo Office. He also became the director of the Toyama Prefectural General Design Center, expanding his activities to include local industries and regional design administration.
I had several opportunities to visit the Kuroki Yasuo Office in Motoakasaka. The office was adorned with a lithograph of the Walkman sent by Andy Warhol, and there was a welcoming drink bar for all visitors. Kuroki was often seen joyfully engaging in conversations with many people. I recall a time shortly after the office opened, before the release of Windows 95, when Kuroki passionately spoke about the future: "In the near future, CDs and DVDs will disappear, and music and movies will be accessible via the Internet. Everything will be digitized and freely distributed worldwide." At that time, I vaguely understood his words, but they became a reality a few years later.
Kuroki's success was undoubtedly influenced by Sony's corporate culture and the era. However, there is much to learn from Kuroki's broad perspective, his ability to interact with people from various fields, and his realization of ideas. In this interview, we spoke with Mr. Toshio Oya, who knew Kuroki during his time at Sony, and Mr. Toshiki Kiriyama, the current director and design director of the Toyama Prefectural General Design Center, who has supported Kuroki from his Sony days through to the Toyama Design Center. （Yasuko Seki）

Masterpiece

Masterpiece

Symbol mark design「SONY」Sony 1961
Product Development「Walkman」Sony 1979
Product Development「Profile」Sony 1980
Product Development「Jumbo Tron」Sony 1985
Product Development「Profile Pro」Sony 1986
Symbol mark design「KAI edge mark」Kai Corporation 1988
Product design「Transparent Shield P Series」Nanwa 2001
CI design「Pasco」Pasco Shikishima Corporation 2003

Books

"Walkman-Style Planning Techniques" Chikuma Shobo 1987
"This is How the Walkman Fought" Chikuma Bunko 1990
"Everything Important Was Taught to Me by Akio Morita" KK Bestsellers 1999
"What’s Really Amazing About Akio Morita and Keizo Saji!" (Co-authored) Kodansha 2000
"Akio Morita Thought About Companies This Way" (Cassette Tape Collection) PHP Institute 2001
"Personality Development Techniques for Businessmen" NHK Shinsho 2001
"Mr. Walkman's Planning Techniques That Make a Difference Here" Jitsugyo no Nihonsha 2002

Interview 1

Interview01：Toshio Oya

Interview：30 January 2024, 14:00-15:30
Place：Online
Interviewee：Toshio Oya
Interviewer：Yasuko Seki, Mirei Takahashi
Author：Mirei Takahashi

Embracing Sony with Passion, to a leadership role in management from the design department
Belief in Japanese manufacturing and the legacy of enhanced potential and influence

Numerous iconic works at Sony

ー　Could you tell us about your time working with Mr. Kuroki at Sony?

Oya　Mr. Kuroki joined Sony in 1960, right around the time when Sony released the world's first transistor television, the "TV8-301". I joined in 1968, coinciding with the launch of the industry's first Trinitron color television, the "KV-1310", and moved to Sony America in 1970. Establishing a design base overseas was pioneering in the Japanese industry at that time, with the exchange rate at 360 yen per dollar. I spent three years in New York, designing audio, radios, televisions tailored for the local market, as well as novelty items. Upon returning, I worked in the TV division, where I designed the industry's first integrated TV/radio/cassette recorder, the "JACKAL", followed by the "CITATION" (a 13-inch portable TV).
Until then, us designers were part of various divisions, but Mr. Kuroki formed a development design group directly under him, where I oversaw overall design as section chief. I was also involved in supervising the release of pioneering products like the 8mm movie camera. Products such as the "8mm Camcorder CCD V8" and "8mm Camcorder CCD TR-55" released in the 1980s were overseen by me during my tenure.

After that, I gained experience not only in product design but also in related design departments. From 1986 to 1990, I transferred to Sony's advertising department as head of advertising production, responsible for TV commercials, magazine ads, and more. Well-known TV commercials included the Walkman with a monkey, 8mm videos featuring Atsuko Asano, audio with Rebecca, radios with YMO, and systems with Princess Princess. Working closely with advertising agencies, our mission was to expand the concept of "Sony-style advertising". The Walkman with a monkey, created in collaboration with Tokyu Agency International and Nakahata Advertising, won numerous awards including the Japan CM Association Grand Prix, New York ADC Award, Cannes CM Bronze Lion, and Clio Award. After about three years in advertising, I returned to the design department from 1990 to 1997 as Design Center Director, overseeing the design of all Sony products. It was around this time that Mr. Kuroki departed from Sony.

ー　From your perspective, could you tell us about Mr. Kuroki's role and achievements at Sony?

Oya　For instance, there's the product advertisement when Sony first introduced the 5-inch "Micro TV" to the market. The slogan was "Transistors change TVs!!". Not only in Japan but also overseas, Mr. Morita encouraged Mr. Kuroki to develop new strategies. It was noted that they collaborated with Mr. Soichi Oya to create multiple ads.
I believe Mr. Kuroki's achievements were particularly significant overseas. He was involved in setting up major showrooms abroad, starting with the New York showroom project in 1962, the London showroom project in 1965, the SONY building project in 1966, and the Paris showroom project in 1971 He was adept at promotions and advertising.

ー　Mr. Kuroki's most representative work must be the development of the first Walkman, correct?

Oya　Yes, indeed. Shortly after becoming head of the PP Center Advertising Department in 1979, he was involved in the development project and promotion of the first Walkman. There are various accounts of how the development of the Walkman began, but it started with a request from Mr. Masaru Ibuka to the division: "Could you put stereo circuitry in a compact tape recorder, focusing only on playback?" Following this request, prototypes were created, which caught Mr. Morita's interest, leading to Mr. Kuroki being assigned to oversee the project. Under Mr. Kuroki's leadership at the PP Center (now the Creative Center), designers were involved in everything from product design to advertising and promotion. Undoubtedly, Mr. Kuroki was intrigued upon hearing the prototype's sound. The Walkman was actively promoted by Mr. Ibuka, Mr. Morita, and Mr. Kuroki. Despite their enthusiasm, there was considerable skepticism regarding the Walkman. Initially, they added a stereo jack to the already-produced Pressman, affixed large headphones, and gradually downsized to create the first Walkman. Mr. Kuroki supervised internal designers and spearheaded the project.

Additionally, Mr. Kuroki pioneered innovative advertising and media announcements for groundbreaking products. The meticulously planned advertising campaigns were a success, generating word-of-mouth buzz. The initial production run of 30,000 units sold out by the end of August after its release, leading to production challenges due to overwhelming demand, transforming it into a global hit product.
I personally brought the Walkman on a business trip to the United States, where everyone on the airplane and at the beach was amazed when they heard it. It was an unprecedented sound experience. Initially, only 30,000 units were planned, and there were concerns about its market reception. However, they sold out immediately.
Unique promotional methods were also prominent. Articles in the media featured celebrities enjoying the Walkman while roller skating, and promotional campaigns were run in youth-oriented magazines like "Popeye". Mr. Kuroki was well-connected in the media at the time, having relationships with magazine editors and television station personnel, which facilitated extensive outreach.
The Walkman 2nd generation further developed from the original model, emphasizing compactness and expanding the lineup to meet global needs, a testament to Mr. Kuroki's foresight. He was also skilled in writing, leaving behind not just interviews but also written accounts of the development anecdotes from that era.

ー　Following the Walkman, another notable achievement attributed to Mr. Kuroki is the "Profile".

Oya　Yes, this was also a project involving all of Sony's top executives. Initially, Mr. Morita suggested embedding a television into a wall, but Mr. Kuroki showed him a hand-drawn idea sketch that evolved into the concept of a television resembling an independent monitor. The idea was to separate components like the tuner and amplifier, similarly to how monitors were standalone. Upon seeing this simple sketch, Mr. Morita found it intriguing and encouraged further development. I've even seen a handwritten note from Mr. Morita to Mr. Kuroki suggesting, "Should we move towards compacting the television into a component?" Mr. Kuroki oversaw the project, communicating directly with top executives to integrate design and advertising efforts. Up until then, cathode-ray tube televisions had been integrated with tuners, so the concept of separating the monitor as an independent unit was entirely new.

It's somewhat of a humorous anecdote, but when the first "Profile" model became a hit, Mr. Morita went to Akihabara and pointed to a monitorized television, saying "This is the Profile," only to discover it was a product from another company (laughs)... Essentially, it was such a novel television that other companies immediately wanted to imitate it. Sony introduced this prototype to the world, which sparked discussion and subsequently inspired other products. "Profile" started as an idea that Mr. Kuroki expanded into a commercial product in close collaboration with Sony's top executives. Therefore, Mr. Kuroki's contribution was substantial. The newspaper advertisements for "Profile" also achieved great success with the clever tagline, "Cutting-edge Trinitron is 'naked'." By 1986, it evolved into "Profile Pro" tailored for studios and commercial use, capable of stacking monitors, setting a precedent for multi-monitor televisions.

ー　Artists like Nam June Paik also used this monitor in their artworks.

Oya　That's right. Mr. Kuroki actively engaged with such artists, directly providing Sony's technology and products. He had a high awareness of supporting culture as a corporate figure. In that sense, the success of this monitor in professional applications was a significant achievement.
In 1982, under Mr. Kuroki's leadership, a development team was established, and I joined the project to commercialize the "Watchman". This, too, started with a design concept. Mr. Kuroki wasn't particularly interested in ideas brought up by divisions or routine proposals in planning meetings; he preferred to develop original ideas from unconventional perspectives. One of my staff in the department proposed the idea of creating a compact television that could be easily viewed outdoors, like at a baseball game, fitting in the palm of one's hand. Among numerous sketches, Mr. Kuroki selected a design that he found intriguing. However, to realize it as a product, a new design for the cathode-ray tube was necessary, and technical development was essential. The department head was enthusiastic about this idea, and instead of the usual linear arrangement of the cathode-ray tube, they explored a right-angle approach to shrink it to palm-sized. Development took about two years, resulting in a small flat tube that matched the designer's vision, eventually becoming the first generation "Watchman" released as a product. It was a groundbreaking product for its time, developing a cathode-ray tube that hadn't existed before, reflecting an innovative concept.

ー　In 1985, Sony introduced the "Jumbotron". During this period, were you involved in the project under Mr. Kuroki?

Oya　I wasn't directly involved in the project, but I observed Mr. Kuroki's work closely. It began with the idea of participating in the Tsukuba Expo, and since Mr. Oga was involved, it was decided that we should do something dynamic that was characteristic of Sony. At that time, there was a large screen in the Sony Building in Ginza, Tokyo, made up of hundreds of CRT TVs stacked together. This led to the idea of creating an even larger screen at the Tsukuba Expo venue. Mr. Kuroki, who was entrusted with promoting the project, had hand-drawn sketches that are still preserved. He was quite skilled at sketching by hand. There was a time when Mr. Kuroki went on a tour of Dunhuang with the Japanese painter Mr. Ikuo Hirayama, and he received praise from Mr. Hirayama for his sketches. I believe those sketches are still displayed at his home.

The "Jumbotron" ultimately utilized advanced technology employing 150,000 electron emitters, and garnered attention at the Sony Pavilion during the Tsukuba Expo. There were many challenges, such as ensuring it could withstand rain and wind, and achieving sufficient brightness for daytime outdoor use, which required considerable technological prowess.
As an aside, I got married during this period. Mr. Kuroki acted as the matchmaker for us, and at the Tsukuba Expo venue, he filmed both of us with the "Jumbotron" and showed the footage at our wedding. We had fun using the "Jumbotron" for that. It was a remarkable era.
Such large-scale projects were made possible because of Mr. Kuroki's leadership. He not only managed the overall budget but also effectively coordinated with top department heads and cultural figures to support technical development. Mr. Kuroki was able to rally people around him to collaborate on projects, whether it was managing budgets, leading technical developments, or providing technical support to cultural figures.
Ultimately, anyone needs a leader they can work for, and Mr. Kuroki had the personal qualities that made people want to work for him.

Keenly attuned to trends and the latest developments,
a personality that inspires 'Let's work for this person

ー　What did you feel about Mr. Kuroki's personality?

Oya　I think it might be because I interacted with Mr. Kuroki one-on-one, but it's about the mutual trust we had. Mr. Kuroki had the determination that he would do anything for Mr. Ibuka and Mr. Morita. Mr. Oga probably also entrusted more work to Mr. Kuroki because he recognized his talent. In a sense, Mr. Oga and Mr. Kuroki might have been similar, which could have led to some clashes. When the Walkman was developed, Mr. Oga took the stance that if he were in charge, he wouldn't release it because it lacked technological novelty. Although the headphones were indeed made smaller, it was just a modification of the already released Pressman. Mr. Oga tended to prioritize promoting and developing new gadgets like the CD and MD formats, which were new to the industry. Mr. Ibuka and Mr. Morita understood the differences in their philosophies. That's why they entrusted the Walkman project to Mr. Kuroki. It was a situation where the leadership's perspectives made a significant difference.

ー　The integration of the PP Center and the Advertising Department into the Product Division was that largely due to Mr. Kuroki's influence?

Oya　Yes, thanks to Mr. Kuroki, the organization evolved from merely design and advertising to encompassing technology, product manuals, the photography studio, and other functions, creating a multifaceted group. In a sense, it established a system where we see our ideas through to completion. We needed agile planning and technology that could move fluidly between different projects, unconstrained by divisional barriers, and we pursued projects not limited to just audio and video. The earlier mentioned "Jumbotron" was also born from this Product Division structure. As a company, introducing the Merchandiser system aimed to cultivate cross-functional talents involved from upstream to downstream—from product planning, design, and engineering to manufacturing, advertising, and sales. Therefore, we recruited talent internally during that time. The recruitment criteria were also different, with conditions like "interest in design and advertising" being a given, but also including unique ones such as "liking cars, motorcycles, or cameras," "knowledge of Harajuku or Akihabara," "listening to Billy Joel and air-checking FM Tokyo," and "people who don't get bogged down in theory."

ー　Mr. Kuroki seemed to be quite proactive towards such innovations.

Oya　During that time, when I was on a business trip to the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, I saw a demo from a certain manufacturer where Michael Jackson's newly released "Thriller" music video was playing. The video was more of a topic of discussion than the actual hardware products, and I brought back a videotape to report in an internal meeting. When I showed it in the conference room, Mr. Kuroki was very intrigued. He was someone who keenly accepted new trends and cutting-edge things. While it's natural to build networks with advertising agencies and major media for work, he also encouraged cultural experiences and personal growth.

ー　Mr. Kuroki became a director. I remember it being a topic when he became the first to rise from the design department to director in a Japanese company.

Oya　Yes, indeed, Mr. Kuroki was the first to ascend from the design department to a role involving management. After that, others like Mr. Sakashita from Sharp followed suit. Returning to Mr. Kuroki's work, we shouldn't forget that he was entrusted with redesigning the "SONY" logo in 1961. At the time, Mr. Morita asked if there were any good ideas for a new neon sign in Hong Kong, and that's where the logo came into play. Regarding the logo, it was regularly reviewed and subtly adapted to fit the times in collaboration with graphic designers. This led to the global logo competition for Sony's 35th anniversary in 1981, where Mr. Kuroki led the initiative. It became a significant topic both domestically and internationally, with advertisements in American magazines like TIME and New York. Ultimately, out of 29,883 entries, Mr. Kuroki chose one, but Mr. Ibuka reportedly said, "Let's stick with the current one; it's clear. Don't change the logo while I'm alive." Looking at the proposed logos now, they seem overly simplified and challenging to read as "SONY," which might have influenced the decision not to change it. Mr. Kuroki always thought about Sony while actively considering the next generation.
The sound logo "It's a SONY," which became synonymous with Sony and was used in TV commercials, also debuted during Mr. Kuroki's tenure. This was another idea Mr. Morita had—to create a sound that would be recognized not just with the 2D logo but also in TV and radio commercials.

ー　What was the relationship like between Mr. Kuroki, who led the design department, and Mr. Ibuka and Mr. Morita at that time?

Oya　Mr. Kuroki learned a lot from Chairman Ibuka and President Morita, and he received many requests from them. Sony, in a sense, was like a "trinity" where Mr. Ibuka, Mr. Morita, and Mr. Oga each had their strong points that complemented each other well, and this synergy undoubtedly contributed to Sony's growth as a new company. While good managers are crucial, it's not often you find such a stellar trio. Their relationship was remarkable. Mr. Morita brought Mr. Oga into Sony during his art school days because he wanted someone who understood music-related matters, and Mr. Oga had grown up surrounded by authentic Western music equipment, developing a keen eye and ear for quality. Mr. Morita saw great potential in him. Mr. Kuroki interacted directly with these three, dining together and perhaps even playing mahjong with Mr. Ibuka. He was skilled at communication, and the top management trusted him to handle various projects. Mr. Kuroki, in turn, accepted the top management's ideas and skillfully steered projects in the right direction.

Communication with cultural and business figures,
and leveraging personal networks after independence

ー　Do you have any memorable episodes that you associate specifically with Mr. Kuroki?

Oya　I recalled several instances and organized them into bullet points.

[Weekly design meetings were held with Mr. Ibuka and Mr. Morita also participating, where even newcomers could present directly to the top management.]
This is something that wouldn't typically happen in most companies. Mr. Kuroki wanted design matters to be heard directly by top executives and insisted that the designers responsible for the designs should explain them personally.

[He always used the phrase "Convince Power."]
In other words, emphasizing necessity. Mr. Kuroki believed that designers should also act as marketers.

[He formed a "Shonen Club (Youth Club)" with cultural figures.]
This was an external activity. It seems they gathered about once a month with people like Ikko Tanaka, Eiko Ishioka, Tadanori Yokoo, Kazumi Kurigami, Katsumi Asaba, and Harumi Fujimoto. They also brought Mr. Akio Morita as a guest and had figures like Ryuichi Sakamoto and Yoshihisa Kinameri (Popeye editor in chief). Mr. Kuroki had deep friendships across various industries, including artists, creators, and media personalities. Later on, he also approached such individuals for the Toyama Design Center. When he left Sony to become independent, his exceptional personal network was instrumental. I think he utilized it well in interacting with political and business figures like Morihiro Hosokawa, Seiji Tsutsumi, Yoshiharu Fukuhara, Yutaka Nakaoki, Yuri Konno.

[He often said, "Work should be done interestingly," "Not every job is always interesting," "When times are tough, that's when you should do it more."]
I remember hearing such words from Mr. Kuroki frequently. He was also known to enjoy mahjong privately. Every year, he would gather dozens of acquaintances at his home or hot springs for mahjong tournaments. He also organized golf tournaments and was someone who enjoyed bringing people together. Mr. Kuroki truly loved Sony from the bottom of his heart, had a wealth of conversation topics, was adept at lectures, and had a deep understanding of artists.

ー　After leaving Sony, Mr. Kuroki immediately became the director of the Toyama Industrial Design Center and started initiatives like design competitions with Mr. Toshiki Kiriyama. Later, you took over as director. Could you tell us the circumstances surrounding that?

Oya　One occasion was during Mr. Kuroki's farewell gathering, where I spoke with Mr. Kiriyama and heard that there wasn't anyone else to ask next, so I offered to take on the role. I don't know the exact considerations that Toyama Prefecture made afterward, but I ended up being asked to be the successor.

ー　You took over the creative department at Sony and then also took over at Toyama. Did you have any thoughts or determination when entrusted with the responsibilities Mr. Kuroki had built?

Oya　I didn't have the extensive network that Mr. Kuroki did, so I knew it would be difficult to operate in the same way. However, regarding Toyama Prefecture's local industries, I thought about how to revitalize them through design and implemented as many measures as I could. Without a change in the top's mindset, nothing would start. I approached about 20 top companies in the prefecture, sharing my experiences from Sony. I emphasized that although local industries had been largely subcontractors until then, relying solely on that would lead to decline. I suggested they should challenge themselves with new product development, even if it's just 5% or 10%. I believed new movements would arise from there. Besides design competitions, I also promoted a souvenir project. Despite having many industries, there was nothing right at the airport when you arrived in Toyama, so we gathered products that Toyama could be proud of, including food, to create Toyama brand. The Design Center led the production with several manufacturers and graphic designers creating prototypes. We presented them at the prefectural office, aiming for direct discussions with the top officials. When the governor was in Tokyo for business trips, we made sure to bring prototypes along. At that time, the governor also felt that Toyama lacked affordable souvenirs despite many visitors coming here, so discussions progressed quickly. Talking directly with the top officials proved useful, just as it did at Sony. Of course, Mr. Kuroki and Mr. Kiriyama had laid a solid foundation during their time as directors, which I greatly respect.

ー　Thank you very much for sharing these valuable insights.

Interview 2

Interview02：Toshiki Kiriyama

Interview：21 December 2023, 11:00-12:30
Place：TRUNK co., ltd
Interviewee：Toshiki Kiriyama
Interviewer：Yasuko Seki, Mirei Takahashi
Author：Mirei Takahashi

After leaving Sony, he went independent.
His connections and unique personality transformed Japanese design

What Japan's manufacturing needs
"courage to change the CPU"

ー　When did you get acquainted with Mr. Kuroki?

Kiriyama　I think it was around 1981. It was when AXIS opened in Roppongi, and Ettore Sottsass came to Japan. I was working for SENDENKAIGI and was assigned to cover Sony, where I met Mr. Kuroki. At that time, Sony's PP Center (PP = Product Planning) was located in Goten-yama, Kitashinagawa, and I first visited Mr. Kuroki's office there. Mr. Kuroki was very open and welcoming to all visitors, not just me.
Nowadays, Sony has strict security, but back then, you could enter the center's core, and the entire company had an open atmosphere. Everyone wore Issey Miyake uniforms, which looked very stylish. There was a unique, distinctive vibe that set it apart from other companies.
The people surrounding Mr. Kuroki were also remarkable, including Mr. Hideo Watanabe. Mr. Kuroki was already a well-known figure in the industry, so I never contacted him directly, but he would call me personally, saying, "Can you come over now?" and I'd go to the Sony headquarters. We had that kind of relationship where we would chat about various design topics.

ー　What kind of casual conversation was it?

Kiriyama　Mr. Kuroki was very knowledgeable and curious about everything. He seemed very interested in the trends in domestic and international design, architects, and designers that I knew about. He warmly welcomed me, and I used to visit him in Kitashinagawa. Even after he became the president of Sony Enterprises, he would call me to visit the building in Ginza.

ー　Mr. Kuroki himself specialized in graphic design, but what was his role at Sony?

Kiriyama　In a sense, Mr. Kuroki played the role of a producer, elevating ideas nurtured by designers to the management level. The "Walkman" is a symbolic example. He loved new things and was constantly thinking about the essence of Sony Design. In general companies, there are project development meetings aimed at the release of new products on a specific date, and design plays a part in that flow. However, Sony was more about free-form proposals. Within that environment, Mr. Kuroki was a unique figure who would present the ideas of his subordinates, or even engineers who weren't his direct subordinates, to Mr. Akio Morita and Mr. Masaru Ibuka. One of the most distinctive aspects of Mr. Kuroki was perhaps the PP Center. It was an organization that crossed boundaries with not just design but also public relations and advertising, which was quite unique for that time.

ー　People with characters like Mr. Kuroki might have shone particularly in that era.

Kiriyama　That's significant. Sony Design was shining brightly. Now, in the digital age of the 21st century, apps have taken over. Or it's become the era of American Silicon Valley IT companies (GAFAM).

ー　In the 1980s and 1990s in Japan, the roles of design centers in large companies, which had famous managers, were highlighted. Do you think that situation has changed?

Kiriyama　The most important thing that needs to change now is the existence of comprehensive creative organizations like Sony's PP Center. The mass-production product model is a 20th-century prototype. Nowadays, design is more involved in management and plays a role beyond its traditional domain. It is important to find what drives a company and create an environment where designers can be involved. With advancements like quantum computers, hydrogen engines, and new environmentally friendly materials, we are at a major turning point for the next era.
Mr. Kuroki was very flexible in his thinking. One of the most vivid things he said was, "If Japan keeps making only DRAM, it will fail. We must be able to produce CPUs." He emphasized that becoming a country capable of making CPUs means grasping the core, the heart of technology.
I was given the freedom to handle the operations of the design center in Toyama. Mr. Kuroki was pleased with my projects. I also had opportunities to drink with Mr. Kuroki once or twice a month, learning various perspectives and ways of thinking, which were very valuable experiences. His thinking was flexible, and his ideas were broad. I consider myself fortunate to have been a direct disciple of Mr. Kuroki's school of thought.

ー　If Mr. Kuroki had been at Matsushita or Toyota at that time, could he have had the same presence?

Kiriyama　No, I believe it was because he was at Sony. One of the reasons for the poverty of Japanese culture is the saying "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down." Unfortunately, Mr. Kuroki was one of those within the organization. Even at Sony, led by Mr. Ibuka and Mr. Morita. It is often said that those who change the world are called eccentrics or madmen (geniuses). I personally think that Mr. Kuroki was close to that. Japan still lacks the foundation for manufacturing that involves listening to and discussing with experts from different fields, and it tends to go for the easy-to-understand route. However, in today's diverse and complex era, the simple, single-minded approach no longer suffices. We need characters like Mr. Kuroki. Designers need foresight and the ability to predict the next era. In Mr. Kuroki's words, it’s about "creating an environment to produce CPUs."

ー　Subsequently, Mr. Hideo Watanabe took over, and the creative organization became a merchandising strategy headquarters, handling a wider range of tasks than typical corporate design departments, including merchandising.

Kiriyama　Yes. Mr. Kuroki was always someone with a wide range of interests, so a strategist like Mr. Watanabe, who was well-versed in practical matters, was needed to land various ideas. Everyone was united under Mr. Kuroki. Some people might have appreciated this flow, while others, like Mr. Norio Ohga and Mr. Nobuyuki Idei, might not have been on the same wavelength. This is just my personal impression. I was only responding to what Mr. Kuroki sought, so there are many things I don't know about his role within Sony. What I know well is about Mr. Kuroki after he left Sony Enterprises and became independent.

As the director of the Toyama Design Center,
revitalizing regional design

ー　So, what happened after he went independent? Mr. Kuroki left Sony in 1993 and set up a splendid office in Moto-Akasaka.

Kiriyama　To be honest, I think that office was unnecessary for Mr. Kuroki. At that time, I suggested that while having a spacious office was good, maintaining it would be difficult and the high rent would be a waste. I recommended renting a room in a hotel like Akasaka Prince and using it as an office. In a hotel, there’s room service for meals. But Mr. Kuroki wanted to have his own place. During his time as an executive at Sony, working with people who symbolized that era, Mr. Kuroki was not someone who would compromise; he wanted to stick to his beliefs. I think there were various factors, including his own pride.
I'm not sure why Mr. Kuroki liked me, but looking back, our relationship was neutral. We had no conflicting interests during our time at Sony, and I answered his questions honestly. While this was going on, Mr. Kuroki decided to leave Sony. Then, I was slightly ahead of him, having already gone independent and started my own business. He would ask me specific questions about running a company, like capital management, even though he had experience from managing Sony.

ー　After going independent, he established the Kuroki Yasuo Office, right?

Kiriyama　Yes, it was the Kuroki Yasuo Office. At that time, it became a sort of Kuroki Salon, frequented by prominent figures like Mr. Jun Shimokobe, as well as executives from the government and major corporations. Younger people from Sony, like Mr. Shinichi Sumikawa, Mr. Takashi Ashitomi, and Mr. Isao Wada, also admired Mr. Kuroki and would visit.

ー　 I remember you also had a desk at the Kuroki Yasuo Office and supported its operations as a director.

Kiriyama　Mr. Kuroki had never run a business on his own, so he needed close support in that sense. Although I wasn't a director, I managed my own company while helping at Mr. Kuroki's office and working on projects in Toyama. I did this for about 1-2 years. I was very busy, so I told Mr. Kuroki it was impossible to handle all three roles and introduced someone else to take over.

ー　At that time, was Mr. Kuroki already the head of the Toyama Design Center?

Kiriyama　Yes. At that time, it was called the Toyama Industrial Design Center, under the Toyama Industrial Development Foundation. Mr. Kuroki replaced Mr. Takuo Hirano as the head of the center.

ー　Did the Kuroki Yasuo Office cease to exist when he shifted his focus to Toyama?

Kiriyama　No, it continued to exist. Mr. Kuroki only needed to go to Toyama once or twice a month. His base remained in Akasaka. He worked there for about 5-6 years before moving to Setagaya. He moved to a modern building near Kinuta Park, designed by interior designer Mr. Setsuo Kitaoka. From then on, his eldest daughter, Ms. Yuko Kuroki, served as his secretary, handling design and branding work. I recall they consulted for companies like Matsushita Electric and Pasco.

ー　Although you were handling practical work, Mr. Kuroki helped lay the foundations for the current Toyama General Design Center by initiating competitions and such, didn't he?

Kiriyama　Yes, I was allowed to do things as I saw fit. Mr. Kuroki never said "no" to my projects. He was a well-known figure who came and was welcomed, so his main role was in lobbying activities. He would meet with important people like the governor of Toyama Prefecture, executives of local companies, and union presidents, and give lectures.
When I planned the Toyama Product Design Competition (now the Toyama Design Competition), I aimed to make it a national-level competition, but Mr. Kuroki suggested involving local companies. He was already stating clearly that "the era of local areas is coming." I distinctly remember him saying it was better to have a competition where Toyama companies posed the challenges.
Also, the Toyama Products certification system was Mr. Kuroki’s idea, not mine. I was skeptical about whether the Good Design Mark of Toyama would be appreciated, but Mr. Kuroki strongly advocated for it.

The scene of the Toyama Product Design Competition judging.

ー　Given that Mr. Kuroki had a successful career at Sony, did he have a strong vision for revitalizing Japan's local regions?

Kiriyama　 I believe he did. Separate from what he had done at Sony, he was considering how to revitalize small and medium-sized enterprises. If you look at the records of his lectures from that time, you can see that he was already talking about the "era of the regions." He had a bit of a politician's mindset. In fact, I once suggested he become a member of parliament. I thought that if he could gather around 100,000 votes, he could become a member and promote design from a political standpoint. But Mr. Kuroki said, "I'm not good with early mornings" (laughs).

ー　Mr. Kuroki initiated projects such as the design competitions during his time as director, which continue to this day. In the 1980s, there was a strong emphasis on "regional revitalization" in Japan. While not many such initiatives took root, Toyama has undoubtedly shown a clear direction.

Kiriyama　 I've always believed that design should be more interdisciplinary. If there are no designers in Toyama, we need to bring them in and think about how to do that. We held design meetings and created interactions with people from large companies, exploring the roles of each era. Mr. Kuroki never said "no" to these initiatives, and his successor, Mr. Toshio Oya, didn't either. That's why we've been able to run for 30 years. But I think it's time to change.
Mr. Kuroki and I rode the wave of the high-growth period of the 20th century. However, now that over 20 years have passed in the 21st century, we need to break away from the 20th century in a positive sense. Otherwise, I don't think Japanese companies will survive. We need to form different alliances and take dynamic steps. Even Toyama must shift away from being dependent on large companies and reorganize its suppliers.
If we were starting with a clean slate, things might have been smoother. Mr. Kuroki, with his poker face, told us a clean story in that initial state. That was wonderful in its own way. Protected by that buffer, I was able to do even more straightforward work. Without Mr. Kuroki as that buffer, it might have been much more difficult.

ー　The Toyama Design Competition had the "Yasuo Kuroki Award" as a special prize from 2007 to 2018.

Kiriyama　That award name is no longer in use. Personally, I wanted to keep it, but the fact is that a time has come when people ask, "Who is Yasuo Kuroki?" Especially among the younger generation, respect for prominent figures of the past is thin, so insisting on Mr. Kuroki's name might not mean much. However, many of his sayings remain, such as "Design must be fun" and "If it doesn't work, you can always go back." After Mr. Kuroki passed away, we held an exhibition in Toyama to honor his achievements, summarizing what he had said. The records are compiled in the booklet "Design Wave 2007 In Toyama."

ー　We will refer to that record as well. Thank you for sharing these valuable insights.

Mr. Yasuo Kuroki's records

"Design Wave 2007 In Toyama"

https://dw.toyamadesign.jp/